Big Brother Malkovich #2

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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Question for observers: would you have approved that last move?
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I don't approve.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Younger brother insists on making us heavy. It is too soon for that. This is lighter, and it is an extension off of our wall, and a threat to invade the corner. If they take the corner. there is still an invasion at 'a', and maybe 'b'. And we can play 2 profitably. Then 4 and 6 are possibilities.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . 1 , O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 6 . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The attachment at D9 is still available, as is F6.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by topazg »

Well, that one surprises me. It appears Joaz wishes to make territory from his thickness?
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I think that's a really dubious move from Joaz. Making territory from thickness while encouraging us to fix our gaping hole in the upper left.

Maybe Joaz thinks this is forcing and then he'll follow up with G12? I think that's too loose. Of course we are behind enough that it probably won't matter.

E9 and C16 both look good to me.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6 - 0 , W=3 - 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . W . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Difficult move to reply to...Do I treat it as an approach on the corner and protect it, leaving black to develop a moyo, or do I try to hinder the moyo and leave the corner open for invasion?
Let's try going for the moyo.
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Approved. I can haz another correction nao plz?

I prefer defending the corner, I think, but this separates a black stone and ensures that black won't make a lot of points here, so I can live with it. I don't think we'll have many points in the corner now, we'll have to make it up on the bottom.

I've thought of a way to value the corrections via an exponential function. So the first one is worth about 2 points and the 10th one is worth 50 or more. This might help me decide what's worth changing.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Ahhh...they fall into the trap...they make a splitting attack toward our wall and leave the corner undefended. :twisted:
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Magicwand
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Magicwand »

Phelan wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6 - 0 , W=3 - 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . W . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Difficult move to reply to...Do I treat it as an approach on the corner and protect it, leaving black to develop a moyo, or do I try to hinder the moyo and leave the corner open for invasion?
Let's try going for the moyo.
[Chew mod edit: fixed this hide tag]

for obs only:
i like way he played. defending the corner is very passive in my opinion.
what he played is actually defending the corner and same time cutting down the moyo developed in the middle.
professional play in my opinion.
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by topazg »

I agree with magicwand. I think this is a very interesting move too. Black cannot easily play in the corner and expect a good result, as he'll have two-ish groups to White's one.

In the corner I prefer C17 to C16 for White. We'll see what Black does.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by gaius »

Wow. Joaz Banbeck's corrections never cease to amaze me. I personally think that in both of those cases Phelan's move was clearly superior. I might be wrong, but damn, what a way to waste two valuable rescue opportunities later on! Let's hope for Phelan's sake that they will not lose the game in a tricky semeai due to having 0 corrections...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 0 , W=3 - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . b , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't like this move. I don't like any of our moves. I think the bottom is getting big, and I would play my original attachment again, but then I think that would make our last move pointless. When Joaz tenukied from the cap he indicated that it was a light stone, a probe to make White choose one side. White took the top, so logically we should take the 3-4 point and steal the corner away from him. But instead we played a move that *should* prompt White to solidify the corner. The way I see it the top is small, with little prospect of territory for either side. So essentially, I am still in the dark as to Joaz's intentions, which means that I might cost us yet another correction....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . b , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . d . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm basically playing the numbers game here. To be honest I feel that 'a' this is the worse move compared to 'b' , but it is the most logical continuation of our previous plays. It also means that after invading the corner, I will still be uncertain of Joaz's intentions regarding the bottom, so I will need every correction I can get. However, if Joaz next corrects this moves and turns to the bottom, I'd at least have a better strategic sense for our continuations. Then a correction might not hurt as much.

I'm quite worried if White takes sente some how (or just directly tenukis) and gets a move like 'c' or 'd'. In fact, I smell a major fight looming, and corrections are going to be worth their weight in gold. These few moves are the most important ones of the game, and this also happens to be the point in the game where I am most confused. I really need to figure out what Joaz is thinking soon, or we could be in deep trouble...
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I approve.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

damnit
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Phelan
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Phelan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Prisoners: :white: 0, :black: 0 Corrections: B=6 - 1 , W=3 - 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ouch. I was expecting it, but still... I should have already had a plan in place to deal with this invasion.
The normal response to a pincer would be to jump out, but here it looks weak and overconcentrated:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Normally...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 a 1 . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It also gives away too much of the corner and side for my liking.

I could try to get the corner, but I'm not sure Black will play this sequence, and I don't know this joseki that well.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Alternatively
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . 1 3 5 . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X 2 O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 6 . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think the influence they get is worth as much as the corner here.

I could go for the side, but again I'm not sure of the sequences:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Alternatively 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . 4 6 . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X 2 O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 5 . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not bad? I don't know. I still don't like the huge amount of territory black just got.

Both of these leave the marked black stone completely safe. I wanted to threaten it somehow...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 Weak Threats
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . d e a . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . O . B . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . c f b . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All of the moves I would normally use to threaten it seem too weak here, though. So it can't be attacked right now.

I think I'm going with the corner,and see what happens.

Edit: Daniel, I hope this game is being less frustrating than the other BB game. :P
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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Aphelion
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Post by Aphelion »

Daniel, its to you.

Trigger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 If accepted
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . X . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . X O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . X . . O X X O O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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