Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

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mw42
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Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . a . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I've seen :w4: played as a response to :b3: several times on Tygem. My answer has always been to play at (a) forcing white to live small and gaining a nice wall. Has anyone else encountered this, and if so how have you answered this move?

If you've seen any other moves that you suspect to be non-joseki, post them here for discussion.
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I don't think it's necessarily a mistake (locally speaking, anyway). However, it is very uncommon, as GoGoD has this position occurring only 15 times out of the 9878 times it occurs. Your move is a pretty common response, as is just taking the 3-3 (and reverting to another joseki).
Last edited by Dusk Eagle on Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by Numsgil »

Dusk Eagle wrote:GoGoD has this position occuring only 15 times out of the 9878 times it occurs


I know what you meant, but... :P
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Yeah, I reread that and I tried to edit it before anyone noticed :razz: . You're too quick.
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mw42
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by mw42 »

Dusk Eagle wrote:I don't think it's necessarily a mistake (locally speaking, anyway). However, it is very uncommon, as GoGoD has this position occurring only 15 times out of the 9878 times it occurs. Your move is a pretty common response, as is just taking the 3-3 (and reverting to another joseki).


Does GoGoD only contain pro games? I'd be very surprised to see this in a professional game, perhaps you can supply some of the game records to satisfy my curiosity?
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by Loons »

It seems black can revert to this joseki if thickness is desirable (normal move order being 1 2 5 4 3, bug Emerus about it if you're curious, I know he likes this one). I dunno if he can place 5 more optimally as a "punishment".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 6 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]



Edit; I guess I'll add what we're all thinking, is this sort of variation possible-

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (Followed by a white counterattack on 3 of some kind)
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by amnal »

Loons wrote:Edit; I guess I'll add what we're all thinking, is this sort of variation possible-

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc (Followed by a white counterattack on 3 of some kind)
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


This kind of thing is fine, in principle, though I'd be inclined to be a little tighter with placing 7, so that I could fight harder. I think I've seen before that 4 is what books list as a mistake because it doesn't really help the white group but it gives black the corner (whereas in the normal joseki white might find it convenient to take the corner later).

I think it's only a minor thing really, as evidenced by the fact that pros have played it ever at all ;) .
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I like this sequence, but I disagree with amnal that :b7: would be better at (a). In the normal joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . 6 . . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

black plays at :b3: instead of (a) because if B(a) then :w4: will be at :w6:. Later, white can invade the corner :b5:. Black would prefer his shape to be :b1:, :b5: and (a), in my opinion. With that said, I'll try this sequence if it comes up again.
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by amnal »

mw42 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I like this sequence, but I disagree with amnal that :b7: would be better at (a). In the normal joseki
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . 6 . . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

black plays at :b3: instead of (a) because if B(a) then :w4: will be at :w6:. Later, white can invade the corner :b5:. Black would prefer his shape to be :b1:, :b5: and (a), in my opinion. With that said, I'll try this sequence if it comes up again.


I don't think 'in the normal joseki' is really a good way to think about things, because our situation is significantly different.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Looking at it like this, I think that 5 is well placed becasue white doesn't have time to pincer as his stones are lacking in eyespace. It feels like 5 will make it harder for white to settle, and certainly 5 is standard shape to make here. That, plus I am too tenacious for my own good ;-) . This move is what I meant by 'tighter'.

To clarify, I think both are fine and there seems to be good reasoning behind them. I am not convinced by the 'normal joseki' reasoning, though.
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

There was a double misunderstanding. When you said "tighter" I thought you meant (a), but you meant (b). Both (b) and :b7: would be good moves here. I think (a) is sub-optimal compared to :b7: for the explanation I gave above.
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by Dusk Eagle »

One thing I noticed when browsing through all the games just now is that white almost always has a strong position along the right side when white plays :w4:, making it so that black is cramped along the right. So it very well could be mistake otherwise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Anyway, here are two games where it occurs:

[sgf-full]http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=824[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full]http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=825[/sgf-full]

P.S. Although the player who plays this variation loses both of the games above, the actual win/loss record for this corner position is right around 50%.
Attachments
2006-09-26d.sgf
(1.54 KiB) Downloaded 766 times
2008-05-15f.sgf
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by cloud »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Regarding this diagram, I think a is better in most cases. Look at it this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


5 is a move played very commonly in this joseki. If 6 is played I would almost certainly answer with 7, so I can't see how the large knight's move would be better.
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Or if we do some tewari... :w6: is clearly terrible, but :b7: is only perhaps a little too close.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 7 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Re: Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

Post by Redundant »

I think a better tewari analysis is this. 6 is a little aji keshi as it removes the possiblity of a 3-3 invasion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


I also want to claim the "skim the thread more thoroughly before posting award", as this diagram has been posted like a dozen times ...
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Post by EdLee »

One question is why is the following not joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation 1
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
A joseki move for :w6: is not the keima (a), but the shoulder hit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Joseki
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ , 6 . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
One reason, as Redundant noted, is W(a) is aji-keshi.

The following is also not joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation 2
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Or, at least :b3: is a rare move. One reason is B is a little thin.

However, if W does the :w4: :b5: exchange:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation 3
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Then B can jump to :b7: -- this may pertain to amnal wanting :b7: to be "tighter."

Another idea :), if the ladder :b8: works for B -- next if W(b), B can extend to (c):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 4
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . X 6 O 2 . b . . |
$$ , . . 5 4 . X 9 . . |
$$ . . . 8 . . . 0 c . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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