Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

mw42 · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , . . . a . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I've seen

played as a response to :b3:

several times on Tygem. My answer has always been to play at (a) forcing white to live small and gaining a nice wall. Has anyone else encountered this, and if so how have you answered this move?

If you've seen any other moves that you suspect to be non-joseki, post them here for discussion.

Dusk Eagle · #2

I don't think it's necessarily a mistake (locally speaking, anyway). However, it is very uncommon, as GoGoD has this position occurring only 15 times out of the 9878 times it occurs. Your move is a pretty common response, as is just taking the 3-3 (and reverting to another joseki).

Numsgil · #3

Dusk Eagle wrote:

GoGoD has this position occuring only 15 times out of the 9878 times it occurs

I know what you meant, but...

Dusk Eagle · #4

Yeah, I reread that and I tried to edit it before anyone noticed :razz:

. You're too quick.

mw42 · #5

Dusk Eagle wrote:

I don't think it's necessarily a mistake (locally speaking, anyway). However, it is very uncommon, as GoGoD has this position occurring only 15 times out of the 9878 times it occurs. Your move is a pretty common response, as is just taking the 3-3 (and reverting to another joseki).

Does GoGoD only contain pro games? I'd be very surprised to see this in a professional game, perhaps you can supply some of the game records to satisfy my curiosity?

Loons · #6

It seems black can revert to this joseki if thickness is desirable (normal move order being 1 2 5 4 3, bug Emerus about it if you're curious, I know he likes this one). I dunno if he can place 5 more optimally as a "punishment".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 6 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Edit; I guess I'll add what we're all thinking, is this sort of variation possible-

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (Followed by a white counterattack on 3 of some kind) $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

amnal · #7

Loons wrote:

Edit; I guess I'll add what we're all thinking, is this sort of variation possible-

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc (Followed by a white counterattack on 3 of some kind) $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

This kind of thing is fine, in principle, though I'd be inclined to be a little tighter with placing 7, so that I could fight harder. I think I've seen before that 4 is what books list as a mistake because it doesn't really help the white group but it gives black the corner (whereas in the normal joseki white might find it convenient to take the corner later).

I think it's only a minor thing really, as evidenced by the fact that pros have played it ever at all

.

mw42 · #8

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I like this sequence, but I disagree with amnal that :b7:

would be better at (a). In the normal joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . 6 . . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . , . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

black plays at :b3:

instead of (a) because if B(a) then :w4:

will be at :w6:

. Later, white can invade the corner :b5:

. Black would prefer his shape to be :b1:

,

and (a), in my opinion. With that said, I'll try this sequence if it comes up again.

amnal · #9

mw42 wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I like this sequence, but I disagree with amnal that :b7:

would be better at (a). In the normal joseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . 6 . . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . , . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . a . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

black plays at :b3:

instead of (a) because if B(a) then :w4:

will be at :w6:

. Later, white can invade the corner :b5:

. Black would prefer his shape to be :b1:

,

and (a), in my opinion. With that said, I'll try this sequence if it comes up again.

I don't think 'in the normal joseki' is really a good way to think about things, because our situation is significantly different.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Looking at it like this, I think that 5 is well placed becasue white doesn't have time to pincer as his stones are lacking in eyespace. It feels like 5 will make it harder for white to settle, and certainly 5 is standard shape to make here. That, plus I am too tenacious for my own good ;-)

. This move is what I meant by 'tighter'.

To clarify, I think both are fine and there seems to be good reasoning behind them. I am not convinced by the 'normal joseki' reasoning, though.

mw42 · **#10**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . b a . . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

There was a double misunderstanding. When you said "tighter" I thought you meant (a), but you meant (b). Both (b) and :b7:

would be good moves here. I think (a) is sub-optimal compared to :b7:

for the explanation I gave above.

Dusk Eagle · **#11**

One thing I noticed when browsing through all the games just now is that white almost always has a strong position along the right side when white plays :w4:

, making it so that black is cramped along the right. So it very well could be mistake otherwise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . O O . . | $$ , . . . . . O X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Anyway, here are two games where it occurs:

[sgf-full]http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=824[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full]http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=825[/sgf-full]

P.S. Although the player who plays this variation loses both of the games above, the actual win/loss record for this corner position is right around 50%.

cloud · **#12**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . b a . . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Regarding this diagram, I think a is better in most cases. Look at it this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

5 is a move played very commonly in this joseki. If 6 is played I would almost certainly answer with 7, so I can't see how the large knight's move would be better.

daniel_the_smith · **#13**

Or if we do some tewari... :w6:

is clearly terrible, but :b7:

is only perhaps a little too close.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 7 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Redundant · **#14**

I think a better tewari analysis is this. 6 is a little aji keshi as it removes the possiblity of a 3-3 invasion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I also want to claim the "skim the thread more thoroughly before posting award", as this diagram has been posted like a dozen times ...

EdLee · **#15**

One question is why is the following not joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 1 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

A joseki move for :w6:

is not the keima (a), but the shoulder hit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Joseki $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . a . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , 6 . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

One reason, as Redundant noted, is W(a) is aji-keshi.

The following is also not joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 2 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Or, at least :b3:

is a rare move. One reason is B is a little thin.

However, if W does the :w4:

exchange:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 3 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Then B can jump to :b7:

-- this may pertain to amnal wanting :b7:

to be "tighter."

Another idea

, if the ladder :b8:

works for B -- next if W(b), B can extend to (c):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Variation 4 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 7 3 1 . . . | $$ . . X 6 O 2 . b . . | $$ , . . 5 4 . X 9 . . | $$ . . . 8 . . . 0 c . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

mw42 · **#16**

@Cloud

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . b . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . c d . . | $$ . . . . e . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

When white jumps out at (a), then (c) and (d) are the most common moves here. Typically you see (c) which aims at the cap at (e) and development along the side. However, depending on the situation, (d) is also played which, as in the joseki :b1:

B(d), aims at securing a large corner with (b).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . Q . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . Y . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . c d . . | $$ . . . . e . . f . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

If the marked exchange is played before white jumps out at (a), then (c) is certainly still possible, but (d) feels a bit small with the possibility of securing a large corner being gone. However (f) is more attractive because the corner is now closed to white (he cannot invade) and it develops more territory along the side.

I'm really surprised to meet so much resistance to this idea. It looks like a basic "3-space extension from a two stone wall" idea.

@Dusk Eagle

Thank you for the game records. I see nothing wrong with :w4:

(in the original diagram) in those games as it seems to be "pushing black toward thickness."

topazg · **#17**

FWIW, and not to be disagreeable with anyone, but having stated fairly definitely that for White to allow Black the pincer and to pull back is a mistake in the past, I have found it not to be the case. Both from mid-high dan players and also from numerous professional games, this is a common way of preventing Black from kicking - something White may want if he has a position on the top and is trying to build big strength to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 1 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , a . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 2 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ b . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , a . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In variation 1, dailyjoseki reports :w6:

as more common than "a" in professional games, albeit normally with a White stone on top (which is an important consideration before playing :w4:

it seems - odd, that used to be my favourite joseki in an open corner and open sides when I was around the 8-10k mark).

In variation 2, dailyjoseki reports :w6:

as considerably less common than "a" in professional games, although it's still the second most common and again normally has a White stone on top at "b". Interestingly, my recollection is that this is a common sequence when White starts out with an approach and then pulls back to "b" (or vice-versa, when White wedges in the middle of the orthodox and gets approached from the shimari, and responds here instead of the two space jump), expecting the invasion. Black often uses this to overconcentrate (see my latest Malkovich game against magicwand in the lower right):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 2 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ W . 3 . 2 7 . . . . | $$ , 6 . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

So to say the slide is definitely aji-keshi seems to be rather overstating it. I suspect, as with all corner joseki choices, it's dependent on the rest of the board (or, in this case, the top edge at least). Certainly seems eminently playable with some purpose behind it

amnal · **#18**

topazg wrote:

albeit normally with a White stone on top

Where is the white stone at the top? In 'b' from your second diagram? I think this is a fundamentally different position, and that it is not fair to apply the same logic to it. The slide is clearly fine here, but none of the reasons for this make much sense to me if the white stone is not there.

daniel_the_smith · **#19**

Actually... It makes a big difference whether that stone is high or low, topazg-- you might want to check again.

Low: http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibxgwvsbva (the slide is more common-- this surprises me!)

High: http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibxgwvsbuz (the shoulder hit is most common, as I expect)

EDIT: nvm, sorry, I completely misread your post.

nagano · **#20**

topazg wrote:

FWIW, and not to be disagreeable with anyone, but having stated fairly definitely that for White to allow Black the pincer and to pull back is a mistake in the past, I have found it not to be the case. Both from mid-high dan players and also from numerous professional games, this is a common way of preventing Black from kicking - something White may want if he has a position on the top and is trying to build big strength to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 1 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , a . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 2 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ b . 3 . 2 . . . . . | $$ , a . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In variation 1, dailyjoseki reports :w6:

as more common than "a" in professional games, albeit normally with a White stone on top (which is an important consideration before playing :w4:

it seems - odd, that used to be my favourite joseki in an open corner and open sides when I was around the 8-10k mark).

In variation 2, dailyjoseki reports :w6:

as considerably less common than "a" in professional games, although it's still the second most common and again normally has a White stone on top at "b". Interestingly, my recollection is that this is a common sequence when White starts out with an approach and then pulls back to "b" (or vice-versa, when White wedges in the middle of the orthodox and gets approached from the shimari, and responds here instead of the two space jump), expecting the invasion. Black often uses this to overconcentrate (see my latest Malkovich game against magicwand in the lower right):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation 2 $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ W . 3 . 2 7 . . . . | $$ , 6 . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

So to say the slide is definitely aji-keshi seems to be rather overstating it. I suspect, as with all corner joseki choices, it's dependent on the rest of the board (or, in this case, the top edge at least). Certainly seems eminently playable with some purpose behind it

This is not correct. It appears that dailyjoseki.com is using too tight a pattern area. This is only more common when a stone is very close on the top side. If a more realistic pattern area is used, you will find that the shoulder hit is about three times as common even when 5 is low.

Common Joseki Mistake(s) on Tygem

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